Halitosisux, thank you for sharing this information; it has given me renewed hope.
Can you share where you buy your 0.2% chlorhexidine digluconate? Can I use any alcohol free mouthwash which contains 0.2% chlorhexidine digluconate? Thanks in advance; God bless you.
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Irrigation of gums using powerful antibacterials
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halitosisux
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Thank you, you're welcome.. I hope it helps. Remember though, this isn't likely to help if you have any other hidden causes that remain. It's definitely continuing to help me. In fact, I just went for 2 days without being able to use any irrigation, and my mouth still stayed fresh as though I had irrigated. When I used manual flossing this morning before resuming irrigation, there was no smell at all on my floss. It would be interesting to see what Dr. MURAT will make of this. I'll try posting the question in his thread later.
Chlorhexidine 0.2% is available off the shelf here in UK supermarkets. Yes any mouthwash containing this in alcohol free form will be the same thing. You could perhaps try any alcohol free mouthwash you're familiar with first, to see what effect it has. But honestly, there's nothing as powerful as Chlorhexidine. You could try with chlorine dioxide. I may try that soon. Good luck and please let us know any feedback.
Chlorhexidine 0.2% is available off the shelf here in UK supermarkets. Yes any mouthwash containing this in alcohol free form will be the same thing. You could perhaps try any alcohol free mouthwash you're familiar with first, to see what effect it has. But honestly, there's nothing as powerful as Chlorhexidine. You could try with chlorine dioxide. I may try that soon. Good luck and please let us know any feedback.
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dick.karma
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halitosisux
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I have never considered reactions to mean anything, because as long as you are worrying about bad breath,dick.karma wrote:@halitosisux
when you say your mouth fresh, does it mean that there's no bb too? no reactions?
you'll still see reactions that you'll attribute to your bad breath even if your breath is as fresh as a baby's. This is halitophobia, and guaranteed to lead to confusion and madness.
I'm already told, reliably, that I don't have BB. I'm merely gauging what's going in my mouth with regards to the taste in my mouth (the general feeling of freshness) and the odour of my tongue (gauged using a clean finger rubbed on the back of my tongue).
I'm still noticing the same freshness since I started this irrigation experiment. In fact, I'm currently completely omitting the chlorhexidine stage, and only using the cheap mouthwash and still getting the same freshness. No odour when using manual flossing. I may soon start using oral probiotic (BLIS-K12) and stop the irrigation to see what happens. I've used K-12 before, but without using any antibacterials, and it made no difference at all. So I'd like to see what happens when my oral bacteria is fully flushed in this way, to see if there's any difference.
Good luck Faith, please report back with any findings.
i tried this with listerine a few years ago. people at work were remarking "has someone been drinking? it smells heavily of alcohol round here". obviously my breath reaked of the listerine but that stuff blasts out whatever is lurking around the gums.
if i haven't used interdental brushes for a few weeks there's a bit of a pooey smell from the back teeth.
if i haven't used interdental brushes for a few weeks there's a bit of a pooey smell from the back teeth.
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Re: halitosisux
Thank you for the informative post. Even though I strongly believe that my bb results from gastrointestinal tract, I decided to try chlorhexidine simply because "what do I have to lose?". Next week I am going to the dentist for tartar removal and checkup, then I'll go with chlorhexidine.
If I understand correctly, you use 0.2% chlorhexidine digluconate in a Waterpik after a morning cleaning routine (brushing, tongue scraping etc.).
It would help a lot if you could answer the following questions:
1) How often do you use chlorhexidine to keep your mouth fresh?
2) How many hours later does your mouth lose that freshness?
3) Do you have staining in your teeth and oral surfaces?
4) Do you have increased calculus formation?
5) Do you have alteration in your taste perception?
6) If you have any of the above adverse reactions, do they go away when you stop using chlorhexidine?
Thanks in advance.
Thank you for the informative post. Even though I strongly believe that my bb results from gastrointestinal tract, I decided to try chlorhexidine simply because "what do I have to lose?". Next week I am going to the dentist for tartar removal and checkup, then I'll go with chlorhexidine.
If I understand correctly, you use 0.2% chlorhexidine digluconate in a Waterpik after a morning cleaning routine (brushing, tongue scraping etc.).
It would help a lot if you could answer the following questions:
1) How often do you use chlorhexidine to keep your mouth fresh?
2) How many hours later does your mouth lose that freshness?
3) Do you have staining in your teeth and oral surfaces?
4) Do you have increased calculus formation?
5) Do you have alteration in your taste perception?
6) If you have any of the above adverse reactions, do they go away when you stop using chlorhexidine?
Thanks in advance.
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halitosisux
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Compor, at the moment my current regime is as follows. CloSys toothpaste brushed into tongue surface. Helps to give a baseline to work on each day. I then brush teeth using Colgate total. I then rinse mouth thoroughly with the cheap zinc-containing mouthwash. After waiting 30 mins I then fill a small container with chlorhexidine digluconate and dip a tongue cleaning brush into the container and then brush it into my tongue. Repeat this as many times as you can within a minute or so. Then rinse your mouth out thoroughly with water. This then minimizes the amount of chlorhexidine that comes in contact with my teeth and staining is no longer a problem at all. Every alternate day, I am mixing 50% of the cheap mouthwash with water and using it with my Waterpik. I'm still getting just as good results this way, and not getting any odour onto my floss if I try manually flossing.
I am currently following "Searching's" advice regarding a low carbohydrate diet. I'm not eating any wheat based products, no grains, no rice, tiny amounts of dairy and no fruit at all. My digestive system is working better than ever and there's no constipation and when I go to the toilet there's hardly any odour at all. I'm usually like a big bag of trapped wind, but that's completely gone. For the first few days I felt extremely weak, but then that went away and now I feel like I'm full of energy. The most important thing for me though, is that my PND has simply GONE. I'm not aware of a constant stream of fairly thick mucus at the back of my nose anymore. Tongue looks a lot cleaner.
If you've never tried a low carb diet, I strongly urge anyone to try. I easily become hypoglycaemic, especially a few hours after eating bread. That's completely settled down now.
I would love to discuss this with anyone who understands about diet. Until now I've hardly done any experiments with diet. I can definitely rule out TMAU too I think, because I've never eaten so many eggs and fish! And yet I've never felt "fresher", both body and breath.
Sometimes, for as long as I can remember suffering with BB, I've had completely inexplicable days where I felt fresher and my BB just seemed to reduce for no reason that I could think of. Nothing I ever did the next day could replicate this. I used to call it "loss of smell". Since being on this carb free diet, it's like having a continuous "loss of smell". I generally would eat mostly the same things on a weekly rotation, so that's why I never imagined "loss of smell" might be relating to anything regarding my diet.
I don't know if it relates to blood glucose levels, fructose intolerance, wheat allergy, etc. The only thing that makes sense to me at the moment is that the removal of carbohydrate from my diet has very quickly led to more favourable microbial changes in my intestines, resulting in less VSCs produced and absorbed into my bloodstream and less for my body to have to neutralise. It could be something more complex than this, and perhaps there is even a "feedback" between the bacterial populations in the gut and those in the mouth. It could be that improved "gut health" is boosting an aspect of my immune system, which then results in less microbial activity all over my body.
I've answered most of your questions there. My mouth feels fresh all day as long as I don't dehydrate. Yes, staining is a problem with chlorhexidine, but if used only on the tongue, the way I've described, it's no longer a problem. I generally don't get much calculus build-up, so I can't really say if what I currently do makes any difference. I have a taste alteration, but you quickly get used to it and you no longer notice it. The only effect it has is that it's a bit harder to detect the levels of salt, so when you cook food for others, it's very easy to make food too salty. All adverse reactions will stop when you cease using chlorhexidine.
Hope that helps and feel free to ask any further questions if you have any.
I am currently following "Searching's" advice regarding a low carbohydrate diet. I'm not eating any wheat based products, no grains, no rice, tiny amounts of dairy and no fruit at all. My digestive system is working better than ever and there's no constipation and when I go to the toilet there's hardly any odour at all. I'm usually like a big bag of trapped wind, but that's completely gone. For the first few days I felt extremely weak, but then that went away and now I feel like I'm full of energy. The most important thing for me though, is that my PND has simply GONE. I'm not aware of a constant stream of fairly thick mucus at the back of my nose anymore. Tongue looks a lot cleaner.
If you've never tried a low carb diet, I strongly urge anyone to try. I easily become hypoglycaemic, especially a few hours after eating bread. That's completely settled down now.
I would love to discuss this with anyone who understands about diet. Until now I've hardly done any experiments with diet. I can definitely rule out TMAU too I think, because I've never eaten so many eggs and fish! And yet I've never felt "fresher", both body and breath.
Sometimes, for as long as I can remember suffering with BB, I've had completely inexplicable days where I felt fresher and my BB just seemed to reduce for no reason that I could think of. Nothing I ever did the next day could replicate this. I used to call it "loss of smell". Since being on this carb free diet, it's like having a continuous "loss of smell". I generally would eat mostly the same things on a weekly rotation, so that's why I never imagined "loss of smell" might be relating to anything regarding my diet.
I don't know if it relates to blood glucose levels, fructose intolerance, wheat allergy, etc. The only thing that makes sense to me at the moment is that the removal of carbohydrate from my diet has very quickly led to more favourable microbial changes in my intestines, resulting in less VSCs produced and absorbed into my bloodstream and less for my body to have to neutralise. It could be something more complex than this, and perhaps there is even a "feedback" between the bacterial populations in the gut and those in the mouth. It could be that improved "gut health" is boosting an aspect of my immune system, which then results in less microbial activity all over my body.
I've answered most of your questions there. My mouth feels fresh all day as long as I don't dehydrate. Yes, staining is a problem with chlorhexidine, but if used only on the tongue, the way I've described, it's no longer a problem. I generally don't get much calculus build-up, so I can't really say if what I currently do makes any difference. I have a taste alteration, but you quickly get used to it and you no longer notice it. The only effect it has is that it's a bit harder to detect the levels of salt, so when you cook food for others, it's very easy to make food too salty. All adverse reactions will stop when you cease using chlorhexidine.
Hope that helps and feel free to ask any further questions if you have any.
Hello everyone,
Here is an update:
At start, I used metronidazole (flagyl) for 10 days to "reset" the system. I have been using 0.2% chlorhexidine digluconate to scrape my tongue (at least twice daily) for 3 and 1/2 months. First 2 months, it really worked well, most of the time I didn't even have morning breath. Then it started coming back again. I don't think it's related to metronidazole cause I've tried it before and it only took a few days for bb to come back. Noticable changes are:
-Thick mucus when I poke my throat during scraping, which keeps coming and coming. It wasn't there before.
-Mucus has the color of the foods that I just ate even if I poke 30 minutes after the meals.
-Heartburn.
-Increasing smell after meals (uncontrollable if I eat junk food or heavy meals).
To me, there are 3 possibilities:
1. (Type 3)
H. pylori caused gastritis
Low stomach acid due to gastritis
Digestion takes too long, more and more acid is being secreted which causes reflux & LES damage
Gases in the stomach escape due to weak LES
(possible solution: Prevent reflux)
2. (Type 3)
Reflux causes irritation in the esophagus
More mucus is being secreted to protect it
Bacterial overgrowth due to mucus = uncontrollable smell
(possible solution: Prevent reflux)
3. (Type 4)
Gases enter bloodstream from the intestines during digestion
Smell comes out through lungs while breathing
(possible solution: I have no idea)
I've seen another GI doc and told him everything. According to him, I have a problem with motility. He recommended upper GI endoscopy to check for LES, reflux and gastritis. I have a few questions for you:
1. Should I ask for a colonoscopy as well?
2. Is there a test or something that I should ask for during endoscopy or colonoscopy that might help resolving this issue?
3. Since dairy products obviously increase mucus production, what do you guys eat for breakfast?
Here is an update:
At start, I used metronidazole (flagyl) for 10 days to "reset" the system. I have been using 0.2% chlorhexidine digluconate to scrape my tongue (at least twice daily) for 3 and 1/2 months. First 2 months, it really worked well, most of the time I didn't even have morning breath. Then it started coming back again. I don't think it's related to metronidazole cause I've tried it before and it only took a few days for bb to come back. Noticable changes are:
-Thick mucus when I poke my throat during scraping, which keeps coming and coming. It wasn't there before.
-Mucus has the color of the foods that I just ate even if I poke 30 minutes after the meals.
-Heartburn.
-Increasing smell after meals (uncontrollable if I eat junk food or heavy meals).
To me, there are 3 possibilities:
1. (Type 3)
H. pylori caused gastritis
Low stomach acid due to gastritis
Digestion takes too long, more and more acid is being secreted which causes reflux & LES damage
Gases in the stomach escape due to weak LES
(possible solution: Prevent reflux)
2. (Type 3)
Reflux causes irritation in the esophagus
More mucus is being secreted to protect it
Bacterial overgrowth due to mucus = uncontrollable smell
(possible solution: Prevent reflux)
3. (Type 4)
Gases enter bloodstream from the intestines during digestion
Smell comes out through lungs while breathing
(possible solution: I have no idea)
I've seen another GI doc and told him everything. According to him, I have a problem with motility. He recommended upper GI endoscopy to check for LES, reflux and gastritis. I have a few questions for you:
1. Should I ask for a colonoscopy as well?
2. Is there a test or something that I should ask for during endoscopy or colonoscopy that might help resolving this issue?
3. Since dairy products obviously increase mucus production, what do you guys eat for breakfast?
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halitosisux
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Compor, thanks for your detailed feedback. FYI, I've stopped with chlorhexidine, and only using CloSys toothpaste to lightly clean my tongue, just so that I can have a baseline to know how other ideas are working. The chlorhexidine didn't stop working for me, but I'm just moving on to new ideas to see their effect. In the last few months I've tried zero/low carb diet, zero fructose diet. They have helped, but it's difficult to survive on such low calories and it doesn't help anything by eating so much protein to compensate. I've never really experimented much with diet, and my knowledge on nutrition is very basic. In the past few weeks I've been avoiding the foods known to exacerbate TMAU symptoms, for those that have this condition, and so far I'm amazed at the effect it's had. I've not yet tried any kind of digestive supplement, but I will be soon.
Please excuse if you've mentioned before, but what is your current situation regarding h.pylori?
Sometimes, when I have tried cleaning tonsils/back of tongue etc too vigorously, and I get lots of gag reflex, I start to get problems with acid. Could your acid issues be relating to this? And when you describe having PND, is this mucus that comes from the nasal cavity? Sometimes I think there's a lot of confusion with PND/mucus, as to where it originates from.
It's always difficult when trying to get doctors to stumble on some issue by having these kinds of procedures done, especially when they then have tell you they've found nothing wrong. If you have gastritis then an endoscopy will reveal this, or rule it out. A biopsy of your stomach lining at this time will also give you a definitive answer to h.pylori too. I don't know anything much about colonoscopy, or what you could ask for, but it's worth discussing with your doctor. Lots of people on here have had colonoscopy, so I hope someone can advise you further on this.
Please excuse if you've mentioned before, but what is your current situation regarding h.pylori?
Sometimes, when I have tried cleaning tonsils/back of tongue etc too vigorously, and I get lots of gag reflex, I start to get problems with acid. Could your acid issues be relating to this? And when you describe having PND, is this mucus that comes from the nasal cavity? Sometimes I think there's a lot of confusion with PND/mucus, as to where it originates from.
It's always difficult when trying to get doctors to stumble on some issue by having these kinds of procedures done, especially when they then have tell you they've found nothing wrong. If you have gastritis then an endoscopy will reveal this, or rule it out. A biopsy of your stomach lining at this time will also give you a definitive answer to h.pylori too. I don't know anything much about colonoscopy, or what you could ask for, but it's worth discussing with your doctor. Lots of people on here have had colonoscopy, so I hope someone can advise you further on this.
Hello halitosisux,
I meant to write this feedback as a success story a few months ago but things started to get worse so I tried to figure out what was going on.
You are right, it's really hard to keep going with so low calories. The amazing thing is that it works. Low carb diet = almost no bb. But once you cheat, it comes back in full force. Why it doesn't happen to people who smoke and eat nothing but junk food? What is difference for us?
I'm glad to hear that TMAU diet is working for you. I just checked, it doesn't look so hard: Avoid beans, peanuts, liver, eggs, lecithin, lecithin-containing fish oil supplements, soybean products and vegetables belonging to the brassica family, such as cabbage, broccoli, Brussels sprouts and cauliflower. Have you ever tried domperidone? You might wanna check it out. Please be aware of the following risks: LINK.
I'm H.pylori-free since 2010. Since then I've had 5 different endoscopy operations with the same results:
Chronic atrophic gastritis
Intestinal metaplasia
H.pylori (negative)
It seems to me that the mucus is coming from my throat, but I'm not sure.
The last doctor said "Even though halitosis is reducing your quality of life, it's not threating your health. Yes you have chronic gastritis and metaplasia which should be checked regularly, but other than that you are fine. You should realize the fact that some cases of halitosis are never fully cured."
I meant to write this feedback as a success story a few months ago but things started to get worse so I tried to figure out what was going on.
You are right, it's really hard to keep going with so low calories. The amazing thing is that it works. Low carb diet = almost no bb. But once you cheat, it comes back in full force. Why it doesn't happen to people who smoke and eat nothing but junk food? What is difference for us?
I'm glad to hear that TMAU diet is working for you. I just checked, it doesn't look so hard: Avoid beans, peanuts, liver, eggs, lecithin, lecithin-containing fish oil supplements, soybean products and vegetables belonging to the brassica family, such as cabbage, broccoli, Brussels sprouts and cauliflower. Have you ever tried domperidone? You might wanna check it out. Please be aware of the following risks: LINK.
I'm H.pylori-free since 2010. Since then I've had 5 different endoscopy operations with the same results:
Chronic atrophic gastritis
Intestinal metaplasia
H.pylori (negative)
It seems to me that the mucus is coming from my throat, but I'm not sure.
The last doctor said "Even though halitosis is reducing your quality of life, it's not threating your health. Yes you have chronic gastritis and metaplasia which should be checked regularly, but other than that you are fine. You should realize the fact that some cases of halitosis are never fully cured."
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halitosisux
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The answer could be TMAU, or something happening in a very similar way to TMAU involving other chemicals in the bloodstream that have derived from our diet/metabolism, bacterial imbalances or other enzyme dysfunctions.compor wrote:Why it doesn't happen to people who smoke and eat nothing but junk food? What is difference for us?
Yes TMAU diet is quite easy. Remember that this is all about a build-up of TMA in the bloodstream and that there are different ways in which this can happen, but it's about a threshold level in our bloodstream. By eating a certain diet, some of us may well find (as I am) that it makes a difference. And if it makes a difference, then you know it is then worth throwing everything at it (as I will be doing shortly).
Thank you for informing me of domperidone. I'll look into it.
Bear in mind also, that digestive issues like the ones you've mentioned, can lead to microbial imbalance in the intestine, which can then lead to increased production of TMA in the intestine.
A deeper look into TMAU diet:
Elimite (or limit):
Eggs
Liver, Kidney
Peas, Beans, Peanuts
Soy products
Brassicas (brussel sprouts, broccoli, cabbage, and cauliflower)
Lecithin and lecithin-containing fish oil supplements
Whole grains
Red meats
Also suggested:
Taking low doses of antibiotics to reduce the amount of bacteria in the gut. This suppresses the production of trimethylamine.
Taking laxatives can decrease intestinal transit time and reduce the amount of trimethylamine produced in the gut.
Taking supplements to decrease the concentration of free trimethylamine in the urine.
Activated charcoal taken at a dose of 750mg twice daily for ten days. Copper chlorophyllin taken at a dose of 60mg three times a day after meals for three weeks.
Taking riboflavin (vitamin B2) supplements to enhance any residual FMO3 enzyme activity. Recommended intake is 30-40mg taken 3-5 times per day with food.
I managed to find 2 databases for choline content:
Link1
Link2
Daily choline intake for adult males:
Adequate Intake (mg/day) 550
Upper Limit (mg/day) 3500
Daily choline intake for adult females:
Adequate Intake (mg/day) 425
Upper Limit (mg/day) 3500
Some interesting values according to the second link:
Eggs, fried 270
Eggs, boiled 230
Egg yol, fresh, 680
Milk, cheese, yoghurt 15-20
Milk shake, vanilla 22
Spices 50-100
Oils, margarine, salad dressing 0.1-20
Chicken, turkey 60-90
Chicken liver 300
Turkey liver 220
Sausage 60
Pork 60-110
Beef 50-430
Breakfast cereals Kellogg Crispix, Corn Flakes 4
Breakfast cereals, others 25-80
Fruits 1-20
Coffee, instant 100
Beer 10
Wine 5
If TMAU is the case, I can start drinking beer again
Elimite (or limit):
Eggs
Liver, Kidney
Peas, Beans, Peanuts
Soy products
Brassicas (brussel sprouts, broccoli, cabbage, and cauliflower)
Lecithin and lecithin-containing fish oil supplements
Whole grains
Red meats
Also suggested:
Taking low doses of antibiotics to reduce the amount of bacteria in the gut. This suppresses the production of trimethylamine.
Taking laxatives can decrease intestinal transit time and reduce the amount of trimethylamine produced in the gut.
Taking supplements to decrease the concentration of free trimethylamine in the urine.
Activated charcoal taken at a dose of 750mg twice daily for ten days. Copper chlorophyllin taken at a dose of 60mg three times a day after meals for three weeks.
Taking riboflavin (vitamin B2) supplements to enhance any residual FMO3 enzyme activity. Recommended intake is 30-40mg taken 3-5 times per day with food.
I managed to find 2 databases for choline content:
Link1
Link2
Daily choline intake for adult males:
Adequate Intake (mg/day) 550
Upper Limit (mg/day) 3500
Daily choline intake for adult females:
Adequate Intake (mg/day) 425
Upper Limit (mg/day) 3500
Some interesting values according to the second link:
Eggs, fried 270
Eggs, boiled 230
Egg yol, fresh, 680
Milk, cheese, yoghurt 15-20
Milk shake, vanilla 22
Spices 50-100
Oils, margarine, salad dressing 0.1-20
Chicken, turkey 60-90
Chicken liver 300
Turkey liver 220
Sausage 60
Pork 60-110
Beef 50-430
Breakfast cereals Kellogg Crispix, Corn Flakes 4
Breakfast cereals, others 25-80
Fruits 1-20
Coffee, instant 100
Beer 10
Wine 5
If TMAU is the case, I can start drinking beer again
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halitosisux
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