Age 11.

[KL123]

so your kids have bb too? In my family I am the only one who has bb, but I have no kids

Yeah dude, this is the BIGGEST and most MISERABLE dilemma of my fukking life.
I passed it on to my kids. GOD, only If I knew it before!

They get bullied in school.They get humiliating remarks and mean comments from other kids, with no fault of their own.

Their innocent minds are tortured and shocked. They brush the fukking blood out of their teeth every morning and every night. They are confused and don't understand how to fix this shit?

Everything is a temporary relief, so they do all the tongue scrapping, and mouth washing and flossing and keeping the chewing gum handy, and whatever the fukking shit that's out there to achieve that excellent so called "dental hygiene". They don't know why are they different from other kids? And the other kids in school these days are mean and brutal. Fukking bastards.

And then it's awful to directly talk about bb with my kids; however, I do give them hints and tips as to how to counter it.

This is just all so FUKKED UP!

Hi KL

Thanks for sharing. I somehow got lucky and found my wife that doesn’t get bother by my issue so much even though she reacts. I am in the process of making a baby and have really been deep thinking weather it’s a good idea having a child that could potentially have bb. It would be a brutal life for them and i would be helpless. I was trying to research dominant/recessive genetic traits and pray the children would not get affected as my
Wife does not suffer. What are your thoughts?

Each to it's own and I don't mean to give you any advice but for me personally, if I get a second chance, I will NEVER EVER take a risk of having kids.
May be your cause of BB is different than mine and it's not passed onto your kids? Who knows? But there is always a risk. If it happens, it will be miserable for you see them suffer due to no fault of their own. They will develop psychiatric issues and go thru this 24/7 mental torture as we do.

And personally for me, this world is already getting a crazy place to live. Resources are shrinking and people are getting impatient and crazy. Morality has taken a nose dive and war on an industrial scale is one of the most profitable business. There is injustice everywhere and money is everything. I wouldn't want to leave my kids in this messed up world EVEN if they didn't have BB.

[Freshhope]

I had the exact thought processes. It’s survival of the fittest these days and unfortunately we are not so fit...

[mauricio]

The only testing facility is located in Netherlands where this research is being carried out.

The process is to get an appointment with a local Dr. that they recommend. I think it's a dental office located somewhere in Nejiemgen, Netherlands. They will do their shit to find out the cause of BB, and if they feel you are a good candidate of SELEN testing, they will recommend you to the research program at the Radboud University.

The Selen testing costs 760 euros which is not a problem. Taking time off from work, and travelling to Netherlands and getting all that done is a challenge, especially in these corona times.

Maybe you are forgetting that it's me who actually emailed them and provided with these infos, I find it a little concerning that you don't remember that.
By the way it's not the SELEN testing that costs 760€ but the whole testing, I even posted the breakdown for each test and cost, apparently they won't test you straight for SELEN without undergoing all those other tests.
Anyways, chances are I might throw these 1,000€ (there's traveling costs and stuff) myself in the upcoming months, this thing instilled a doubt in our minds and I'd like to get rid of it before moving on with much more expensive solutions, like a prolonged water fast.

[KL123]

The only testing facility is located in Netherlands where this research is being carried out.

The process is to get an appointment with a local Dr. that they recommend. I think it's a dental office located somewhere in Nejiemgen, Netherlands. They will do their shit to find out the cause of BB, and if they feel you are a good candidate of SELEN testing, they will recommend you to the research program at the Radboud University.

The Selen testing costs 760 euros which is not a problem. Taking time off from work, and travelling to Netherlands and getting all that done is a challenge, especially in these corona times.

Maybe you are forgetting that it's me who actually emailed them and provided with these infos, I find it a little concerning that you don't remember that.
By the way it's not the SELEN testing that costs 760€ but the whole testing, I even posted the breakdown for each test and cost, apparently they won't test you straight for SELEN without undergoing all those other tests.
Anyways, chances are I might throw these 1,000€ (there's traveling costs and stuff) myself in the upcoming months, this thing instilled a doubt in our minds and I'd like to get rid of it before moving on with much more expensive solutions, like a prolonged water fast.

Stay in touch with me if you plan to travel. I might come with you as well. If nothing else, we will screw a few Dutch babes in Amsterdam.

[Gigolo Joe]

Forgive me if I'm in breach of etiquette here, I have done a little searching on the forum, and I'm not familiar with you all individually or what all you've tried.

Have any of you or your children used an oral irrigator/water pik/water flosser? There's an old website called "Oramedia" devoted to the work of a Dr. Robert O. Nara and his concept of "Oramedics". The summary is that oral bacteria colonies are the cause of all oral disease, and cavities and gum disease are just symptoms of an infection. Even if you brush, floss, go to the dentist regularly, and have impeccably clean teeth, the bacteria are harbored beneath the gum-line, and these hidden nasties must be eradicated in order to truly solve the problem. These bacteria are also likely to cause a host of health problems, like heart disease, which the establishment is only slowly beginning to acknowledge.

I realize not all bad breath is caused by the mouth itself, but it's important not to stop at brushing, flossing, rinsing, and swishing.

I see some have also had some measure of success with nasal irrigation with a neti pot too, and I think that can be an important part of the picture.

The expensive mouthwashes (I can't believe there's a character calling himself "Dr. Katz"...) can be replaced with simple sodium chlorite solutions. You can find this chemical relatively inexpensively on its own through familiar internet and auction sites, and a simple 1/8 to 1/2 tsp per pint of water mixed fresh every week will suffice. You can use rinse with it, but putting it in the tank of the water pik irrigator will be especially effective.

With the neti pot I would stick with baking soda and salt. I have tried other substances and they're unpleasant and I think not worth any of the risk they may entail.

Personally, my bad breath has for a long time been mainly due to unseen bleeding in the interproximal spaces between molars, due to either cavities or failures at restoration boundaries. Rotten and purified blood causes death breath. I now have a number of broken teeth, but I have managed to keep infection and bad breath at bay for a couple years with regular water flossing.

Still, despite regular water flossing, I've had gum inflammation, particularly around the teeth which have crumbled down to the gum-line. It didn't hurt per se, it was just a sense of irritation akin to having a plaque build up and crud between the teeth. After many years of scoffing at the whole idea of colloidal silver, I recently decided to make some to try for other reasons. Just for giggles I tried swishing for a couple weeks and it had no effect on my mouth. Ultimately I ended up making a highly concentrated batch and turning it into a gel with xanthan gum, and sweetening it with erythritol. I applied it to a moldable mouth guard and wore it over night, and after one single application it halted all the irritation. I also drank some for a while, and I'm personally firmly convinced now more than ever that I've had endocarditis for years as a result of the bacteria in my mouth, and am now free of the slow-burn infection destroying my heart.

Studies also show xylitol to be beneficial in many ways, and that 8 grams of xylitol syrup given to children in 2 or 3 daily portions reduce cavities and oral bacteria significantly. I made a syrup with 50/50 water and xylitol and put a spoonful in my mouth morning and before bed. It's counter intuitive to swish a sweet syrup around and hold it in the mouth, but it's very pleasant, and I believe something every parent should be giving to their kids. Xylitol candies and mouthguards are very effective for controlling dry mouth while sleeping too.

It's unsurprising people can't find relief from their dentists, and I'm personally not surprised someone like Katz, who has managed to achieve ADA endorsement for his gargantuanly overpriced products, would be capable of wiping this forum off of multiple search engines with a single phone call, because the more you learn about dentistry, the more likely you are to conclude it's little more than a criminal cartel, with lobbies and trade associations such as the ADA serving only to protect the interest of dentists and the profits of their vast merchandise empire. Curing their patients of disease would literally put most of them out of business and they will not do it. It's naive to believe they are somehow better or more ethical than that.

Anyone is capable of buying/making/mixing these things, so there's no reason to be intimidated. If anyone is interested in more specific details I'd be happy to oblige. I got my irrigator at the local big box chain, but they are available for $35-45 from a big site offering direct Chinese imports. I don't know what the policy about mentioning retailers is here, but I can furnish links privately if it's against the rules to post it.

I was such an awkward child that bad breath would have been the least of my problems, but it wouldn't have been any less devastating to be singled out for such criticism. No child should have to endure that. Kids should all have baby's breath.

edit--------
It goes without saying that mercury amalgam fillings are a potential source of bad breath, regardless of anything else. I do believe having half a dozen large amalgam fillings in my molars by the age of 14 contributed to my bad breath (as well as the onset of uncontrollable tremors half way through middle school). Until this evil substance and the people who push it recant their position and ask forgiveness, innocent children will still be subjected to toxic, reactive fillings. Composite fillings cost $15 more than an amalgam. If your or your child's dentist automatically opts for amalgam, or worse, ridicules you for questioning their safety, snatch your child out of that chair and go find another dentist who will be more respectful or sensitive to your concerns, and for god's sake, do not ever allow an amalgam filling to be installed in someone you love ever again. Complete removal of existing amalgams is preferable, but is not a simple matter. I'd urge anyone so afflicted to dive deep into the issue.

[mauricio]

Stay in touch with me if you plan to travel. I might come with you as well. If nothing else, we will screw a few Dutch babes in Amsterdam.

I'll keep you posted on when I can make the trip, easier for me of course as I'm in Europe.

[mauricio]

The summary is that oral bacteria colonies are the cause of all oral disease, and cavities and gum disease are just symptoms of an infection.

this is obviously false, it would be an exercise in wasting time debunking it.

to the dentist regularly, and have impeccably clean teeth, the bacteria are harbored beneath the gum-line, and these hidden nasties must be eradicated in order to truly solve the problem. These bacteria are also likely to cause a host of health problems, like heart disease, which the establishment is only slowly beginning to acknowledge.

this is exactly the pitch we've been hearing for decades from the 'cartel' (your word)

I realize not all bad breath is caused by the mouth itself, but it's important not to stop at brushing, flossing, rinsing, and swishing.

flossing and rinsing have no effect of plaque, let alone bb. I basically stopped flossing months ago, only do it from time to time if there's food stuck, root of bb is certainly not there, everyone on this forum knows that.

It goes without saying that mercury amalgam fillings are a potential source of bad breath, regardless of anything else. I do believe having half a dozen large amalgam fillings in my molars by the age of 14 contributed to my bad breath (as well as the onset of uncontrollable tremors half way through middle school). Until this evil substance and the people who push it recant their position and ask forgiveness, innocent children will still be subjected to toxic, reactive fillings. Composite fillings cost $15 more than an amalgam. If your or your child's dentist automatically opts for amalgam, or worse, ridicules you for questioning their safety, snatch your child out of that chair and go find another dentist who will be more respectful or sensitive to your concerns, and for god's sake, do not ever allow an amalgam filling to be installed in someone you love ever again. Complete removal of existing amalgams is preferable, but is not a simple matter. I'd urge anyone so afflicted to dive deep into the issue.

while absolutely detrimental for health, mercury fillings per se are hardly the cause of bb, those cases can easily be fixed by a dentist (with safety protocol hopefully)

[Gigolo Joe]

this is obviously false, it would be an exercise in wasting time debunking it.

Well if you can't be troubled to 'debunk' it, perhaps you could point me in the right direction.

What I actually said was brushing and flossing and cleanings in and of them self are typically not enough to maintain a healthy oral ecology, the gum line must be clean as well. I never floss. And, if dentists ever did any more than lip service to prevention, like offering bacterial cultures or recommending water flossers, we clearly would have made more headway in the epidemic of oral disease.

I'm not going to delve any further with you unless your intent is to be helpful. I can get my fill of snark at any location of my choosing.

[mauricio]

this is obviously false, it would be an exercise in wasting time debunking it.

Well if you can't be troubled to 'debunk' it, perhaps you could point me in the right direction.

What I actually said was brushing and flossing and cleanings in and of them self are typically not enough to maintain a healthy oral ecology, the gum line must be clean as well. I never floss. And, if dentists ever did any more than lip service to prevention, like offering bacterial cultures or recommending water flossers, we clearly would have made more headway in the epidemic of oral disease.

I'm not going to delve any further with you unless your intent is to be helpful. I can get my fill of snark at any location of my choosing.

I assumed it was implicit in the sentence that oral bacteria are the cause of all oral diseases including bb, but I give you this was my interpretation hence my stance. if we are talking about cavities of course oral bacteria are involved in the process duh...

'if dentists ever did any more than lip service to prevention, like offering bacterial cultures or recommending water flossers, we clearly would have made more headway in the epidemic of oral disease.'

are we talking about probiotics lozenges? that's the headway you are referring to?
there's dozens of threads on them: spoiler alert - won't work for bb nor in preventing cavities.
there's studies where people got injected with sugars and developed cavities as a result, there would be no cavities if we were on our optimal diet.
still not quite sure what all this has got to do with bb, I'd say 90% in here have extra oral causes.

[ineedcure]

I would say that most of the people in here did not just come here without consulting the dentist and physician. I can relate that they have received the same answer that their teeth and gums are in excellent health. People are here because they want to find an answer that even the experts have failed to provide. The dilemma that people experiencing with this condition is not knowing the root cause of this problem that's why they tend to try different products, strategy or even undergo operation heeding the advise of other people that they think would cure the disease. The excitement turns into frustration when the outcome doesn't change anything after spending a decent amount of money, time and effort. I am a firm believer of hope and time. So I am continue doing what makes my breath in control and test different products until the cure has been found. Better not to debunk people's faith in anything that give them relief because it takes a lot of energy from me.

[KL123]

I would say that most of the people in here did not just come here without consulting the dentist and physician. I can relate that they have received the same answer that their teeth and gums are in excellent health. People are here because they want to find an answer that even the experts have failed to provide. The dilemma that people experiencing with this condition is not knowing the root cause of this problem that's why they tend to try different products, strategy or even undergo operation heeding the advise of other people that they think would cure the disease. The excitement turns into frustration when the outcome doesn't change anything after spending a decent amount of money, time and effort. I am a firm believer of hope and time. So I am continue doing what makes my breath in control and test different products until the cure has been found. Better not to debunk people's faith in anything that give them relief because it takes a lot of energy from me.

Perhaps one of the problems is that there is not enough return on investment for big pharma to find a cure for this medical condition.
The progress is so slow that it's almost negligible.

[mauricio]

or we stop looking for a cure when the only cure would be to properly address our below than optimal life style.
dentists didn't fail to provide an answer, it's not in their field the problem is rooted into, yet that's apparently still not accepted in here.