Irrigation of gums using powerful antibacterials

[halitosisux]

I'm doing some research into something really promising. I'm not going into details yet, but I will be soon. I need some feedback from as many people as possible please.

Question:-
When you floss your teeth, are there any particular areas that make the floss smell bad? Please give as many details as you can, such as how many areas give odour, how regularly you floss these areas, how good your teeth and gums are generally, and whether your tongue is often coated and smells too, whether you have tonsils and tonsil stones.

Please reply even if you don't usually get any odours when you floss and whether or not you believe your bad breath is caused elsewhere in the body and for reasons that have nothing to do with oral causes or oral microorganisms.
Thanks

[StillHoping]

wow did everyone get cured this week or something?? lol please pass on the good luck to me!!

halitosisux, I cant wait to find out what you discovered!!

- I noticed my furthest teeth [the molars; both upper and lower] do have the strong sour smell when I floss.
- I try to floss every single night
- The dentists always claim I have healthy teeth/gums; but I don't know how much I trust their assessment
- I used to ALWAYS have white tongue coating, until I eliminated dairy from my diet
- My tongue is definitely a prime factor in my BB because for example if I clean just my tongue without cleaning my teeth/ other areas in my mouth. My bb is temporarily eradicated
- I never had tonsil stones, but had tonsils/adenoids removed this summer

[Bear44]

Question:-
When you floss your teeth, are there any particular areas that make the floss smell bad? Please give as many details as you can, such as how many areas give odour, how regularly you floss these areas, how good your teeth and gums are generally, and whether your tongue is often coated and smells too, whether you have tonsils and tonsil stones.

Please reply even if you don't usually get any odours when you floss and whether or not you believe your bad breath is caused elsewhere in the body and for reasons that have nothing to do with oral causes or oral microorganisms.
Thanks

Please share when you can. Other people may have a twist or different thought process that could contribute. Eagerly waiting.

- I don't believe there are any areas when I floss that make it smell bad.
- I usually floss about once a day and my oral hygiene is pretty normal.
- My tongue is lightly coated in the morning, and it usually smells.
- My gums do not smell though.
- I have had a tonsillectomy, adenoidectomy, and all wisdom teeth removed.

[whatdidido]

When i floss my teeth regularly, i don't have any spots that smell bad. When i skip flossing for a few days, its usually my back molars that have a tiny bit of a smell but its nothing serious-- these spots usually have a buildup of food that come out on the floss

My dentists repeatedly say my gums are fine but i am doubtful of that as when i floss, i usually bleed and some areas of my gums swell up. There is one particular tooth, i call it my vampire tooth, second down from my front teeth that the gum area seems to be receding and it is quite sensitive-- again i have mentioned this to my dentist and he claims its not an issue. Also, i have discovered spaces between my teeth that were never there before... this is a sign of gingivitis or periodontal disease but dentists seem to think It's ok! I do have two veneers and a crown on both my front teeth, but they are supposedly in great condition, they are relatively new as well, replacing a crown i had for about 8 years previously. I have no smell or problems in this area

My tongue is usually pink with maybe a small coat of white in the back. I scrape my tongue everyday and have NEVER had an odour from my tongue.

I recently discovered i had tonsil stones-- I've only ever produced or noticed about ten. I strongly believe they were coming from my adenoids because i picked and prodded at my palatine tonsils and never produced a stone, only fluid. It was whenever i kind of "horked" up mucus that i would find them and they were very small. I had my tonsils/adenoids removed exactly two weeks ago today. Still waiting on them to heal (I've still had reactions but sometimes none-- i still have a white/yellow coating where they are healing so I'm waiting till this clears up before i can say for sure)

I do believe i have a relaxed esophagus or whatever it is that keeps your food down in your stomach. There have been many times where i "puke up" food or stomach acid after i eat but i don't feel like i get heart burn that often anymore.

Regardless of if i brush my teeth, scrape my tongue, use mouth wash, the smell never goes away. Not even briefly. I am feeling like it is becoming nasal now as well but i could be paranoid.

Hopefully that was detail enough for you, can't wait to hear what you have to say!!

[compor]

-I only get foul smell while flossing upper and lower molars
-Normally I floss every day
-Teeth and gums are healthy
-Tongue is often coated & smelly
-No tonsil stones

[halitosisux]

Thanks for the great feedback.
I will give more info on the weekend when I get home. I was going to wait longer but since I saw what Amro has said, I decided to mention it. I need to be very clear and I need to cover myself with my wordings because it involves something different that could cause harm for some.

[StinkBomb]

I tried to rule out any obvious oral conditions years ago. I had all 4 wisdom teeth extracted and an old root canal tooth (with crown) removed.

When you floss your teeth, are there any particular areas that make the floss smell bad?

I never really detected a foul odor when I floss.

how many areas give odour

No areas that I notice.

how regularly you floss these areas

I floss about 3 times per week.

how good your teeth and gums are generally

Aside from some gum recession and enamel wear, I'm told that my dental health is fine.

whether your tongue is often coated and smells

My tongue is not usually coated that bad. I don't think my tongue coating smells too bad except maybe all the way in the back where the tongue meets the throat.

whether you have tonsils and tonsil stones

I had my tonsils removed about a year ago. Never noticed tonsil stones but ENT mentioned that the pathology report indicated that they contained sulfur granules.

[Wayne67]

Hey there. Been browsing these forums for a couple months now, but I finally decided to get an account and to answer the questions on this thread and help contribute to your survey.

Here's my long, detailed response as requested.

Yes, I do have a bad smell between my upper right 2nd and 3rd molar. When I floss and smell the string, it smells like a tonsil stone (so basically that poopy smell). It doesn't smell as bad if food hasn't been stuck up there for a while. I've noticed this smell for about 2.5 years now.

I floss my teeth once a day before I go to bed; I used to floss at least twice a day, but with my schedule I just don't have the time. My teeth and gums are pretty good, according to my dentist.

I asked my dentist about this smell between my teeth actually, and she went to check for any cavities there, but she said no.

My tongue is usually coated (white), and it smells bad, especially after eating. The tongue has a good bit of fissures and my mouth is usually dry.

I also have tonsil stones, and I do not have my tonsils removed.

Hope this reply helps to your questions!

[halitosisux]

Thanks again for all the good feedback. I would like to share something which is helping me, and might possibly help some of you too. I am still experimenting, so any feedback on this will be welcome.

In order to make any sense, I need to explain a fair bit first.

I am a completely healthy middle-aged male with no history of any significant health problems. I eat a balanced diet and my digestive system works as well as I could hope for. Many of you may know that I share a very similar story to many of you regarding BB - Being told at a young age and throughout my childhood about my BB - being aware of tonsil stones (and eventually realising where they were coming from), smelly coated tongue, etc. I have never had any reason to believe that I've ever had bad breath from my nose, nor any awareness of any abnormal body odour.

Around 1997 I had my palatine tonsils removed. The tonsils were normal sized but crypted and packed with stones that would frequently fall into my throat and be coughed out. The tonsillectomy made very little difference, except for reducing some of the awful taste at the back of my throat and completely eliminating all trace of tonsil stones. I was told at the time that my adenoids were fine and I have no reason to suspect otherwise.

By chance a few years later, I discovered that an impacted, partially erupted lower-right wisdom tooth was producing a LOT of stench around the area where it was situated. I had this tooth removed in 2008 after searching for information on impacted wisdom teeth and bad breath, and coming across this website and the story of "CURED".

I've had it confirmed by another person who I've always trusted to give me honest feedback, that after the removal of this tooth, I went from "having BB" to "not having BB". I could also tell almost immediately from the change of taste in my mouth that this was a very significant change (it wasn't because of antibiotics because I wasn't given any). Also, whether it was a coincidence or not, my right tonsil also seemed to be the one that smelled the worst and produced the most stones (same side as wisdom tooth), but as I'd already had my tonsils removed, I could not confirm any connection.

For me, a key indicator of the state of my breath has always been the odour of my tongue at any given time. Dr. Murat (Aydinmur) says tongue odour should never be used as an indicator of breath odour, but for me there has always been a proven correlation between the strength of the odour on my tongue and the strength of any BB. Perhaps it depends on what specific malodourous chemicals are involved, as every chemical has unique characteristics and as there are numerous malodourous chemicals that can concentrate on the tongue surface, then I can understand how there may be a potential for making incorrect assumptions when trying to ascertain whether or not we have bad breath based on any odour we're able to detect on our tongues.

My tongue would always have that awful shitty/vinegary odour and corresponding bitter taste. This reduced slightly after my tonsillectomy, and greatly reduced after my wisdom tooth extraction, but it didn't go away completely. This leaves the possibility that this remaining odour is either a normal "background" amount that is below a bad breath "threshold", or there is still some slight BB remaining. If this remaining tongue odour isn't normal and still causing some BB, then it is either due to an underlying "predisposition" I have always had to BB (compared to those lucky people who never seem to have any BB even with a mouth full of filthy rotten teeth), such as an immunological weakness or deficiency of some kind, or that it relates to some kind of systemic blood-borne (intestine-bloodstream-saliva/mucus) pathway, an unfortunate bacterial (or parasitic?) population I happen to have acquired, either in my intestine or in my mouth, or an unfortunate "ecology" of my nose/mouth/throat, i.e. excessive or excessively thick mucus/composition of my saliva or mucus. It could be due to lots of other unknown things too, such as viruses, an endocrinological issue, organ dysfunction, etc.

So, you may understand why I still think about this problem and never stop trying to piece together the information I've gathered over the years. I have no scientific background, so please excuse this.

One thing that helps my confidence is a hygiene routine I have strictly followed each morning for at least a year. This involves manual flossing, brushing my tongue (gently) with CloSys toothpaste, brushing teeth with Colgate Total, thoroughly rinsing entire mouth with cheap mouthwash containing Zinc chloride and Cetylpyridinium chloride. After a 30 minute delay, gargling with chlorhexidine. I do not swish the chlorhexidine around my mouth, I try to keep it on my tongue only (to avoid tooth staining as much as possible).

Even after doing all of this, I find that certain teeth always seem to smell when I manually floss them the next morning. I have always assumed this to be due to what has deposited itself there during the day from the rest of my mouth. I have also always assumed that tonsil stones form in the same way, mostly from what scrapes off from the tongue surface into these crevices as we talk, chew and swallow, etc.

About 4 months ago, I was thinking about this and certain things that I've read and seen mentioned. Firstly, I remember reading that it was once part of standard practice to treat gum disease by blasting the gums and entire mouth with a Chlorhexidine irrigation. I also started thinking about what Meowkity1 repeatedly says, that her bad breath improves after a deep cleaning (even though her dentist says her teeth and gums are perfectly fine). I also began thinking about what Dr. Murat once said, that until teeth begin to emerge in a baby's mouth, the oral bacterial population almost entirely consists of streptococcus salivarius (this is the bacteria used in Blis-K12 breath products). It made me wonder why, when a baby's teeth emerge, does the bacterial profile in the mouth change? Is it the new habitat of the teeth surface? Is it the new habitat of the subgingival areas? Anyone know?

"Searching" uses aspirin occasionally, as an antibacterial, rubbed around his teeth and gums, and only recently mentioned that he still does this to the same good effect.

So, after more thinking and reading about the importance/significance of the fluids and the colony of bacterial that normally live below the gumline, I decided to try irrigating this entire area with my Waterpik hydroflosser. I've tried this before with salt water and a capful of different mouthwashes over the past 3 years or so, but the smell between the teeth is always there the next day.

*Please read the warnings below regarding chlorhexidine*

I had never tried chlorhexidine in my Waterpik in this way before. This is alcohol-free 0.2% chlorhexidine digluconate, straight from the bottle - no dilution. Chlorhexidine's antibacterial effect increases the more concentrated it is. Using it diluted will only have limited effect on certain microbial types.

I've been doing this once every alternate day for the last 3 months, with no major side effects at all, and I now have NO odour appearing when I manually floss my teeth - but most importantly, I have the cleanest taste I've EVER had in my mouth. NO odour on my tongue whatsoever for the entire day. I'm even waking up with a clean taste once I start salivating and flushing out any stagnation.

I'd eventually like to try to find out if there's any actual significance to any of this. I have no reason to believe there is anything wrong with my teeth/gums before starting this irrigation, so why is this making such a difference to the rest of my mouth?

Bacterial colonies normally live below the gumline, but could there be some kind of connection to this population of bacteria that lives below the gumline, to what happens bacterially to the rest of the mouth? Is it ever normal to have odour on dental floss when we floss each day? Apparently it is not normal, so why do I normally get this odour when I've got no problems with my teeth and gums?

Rememeber, this needs to be done in conjunction with a tongue cleaning routine. Use whichever method works best for you. This has purely been an experiment for me to see what would happen using a powerful antibacterial flushing below the gum and between the teeth, as described in the Waterpik instructions, except for using a 100% mouthwash concentration.

When I now manually floss my teeth, there's a different sensation. There isn't any raw feeling and there is never any blood.

Good luck if you try this! Please give feedback.

*If you try this, you do so at your own risk to yourself and your equipment* *Do not use any alcohol containing mouthwashes in a Waterpik* *Follow the Waterpik instructions - they state not to use more than 1:1 ratio of water and mouthwash - I'm using 100% mouthwash, so if you use this concentration, you do so at your own risk! Use at low pressure setting and build it up to what you feel comfortable with*
Chlorhexidine also gradually stains the teeth, but it is a non-permanent staining and can be scraped off. Test for allergic reactions first. Test for irritation and go gradually to begin with. Wait at least an hour after other hygiene routines and eating/drinking food, and wait at least another hour afterwards. Chlorhexidine will alter the sense of taste temporarily. Please make sure you read all the warnings first and go easy to begin with.

I am currently alternating between using chlorhexidine and the cheap mouthwash for the irrigation. Still working just as effectively as it did from the start.

[sopo]

I went to the dentist last week to get a deep gum cleaning. He first scraped my gum line to remove all the pockets followed by lasering it to kill off all bacteria. I'm told to apply chlorhexidine + metronidazole gel to the gums and rinse it after a while. My tongue used to smell always when I rubbed my finger across it and I could detect smell sometimes when I floss my molars.
Now when I apply gel I dont get any smell when I llick my tongue. It's may be because of antibiotic metro in the gel. But tongue is still coated.
Still I'm not confident about my breath when I put my tongue out and exale I still can smell the pungent smell. My tonsils are of normal size and when I press it I always get milkey white sometimes yellow puss. I remember coughing out few tonsil stones long back but get it frequently.
I also have half errupted wisdom tooth which Im thinking of extracting soon.

[Corpsebreath]

Thank you halitosisux for sharing this. I'm using chlorhexidine a lot and i have a water pik. I'm going to experiment with this.
I have a question for you. Back when you still had your wisdom tooth, did you ever notice that the bitter taste/sensation on your tongue was worse on that side? Did you ever notice a certain "spot" on your tongue where the taste/sensation was more prominent?
The reason i'm asking is because my sour/bitter taste almost always seems to be more noticable on the right side. And often i can even pin point a small spot on my tongue where it feels like it's coming from, it's on the side, where two of my molars are touching it. It's almost like a burning sensation there...
This has often made me suspect those teeth to be the cause, but when i floss them there is almost never any smell at all. Same as the rest of them.

[ThinkPositive]

Hey. I have also noticed bitter saliva on the sides of my tongue. I have an impacted wisdom tooth(left tooth) dentist said is growing sideways and there's a flap of gum on top. When I clean my tonsils of any stones its always the left tonsil with most debris and it smells similar to the odour I sometimes detect (very strong fecal smell or sometimes garbage too). As I'm under nhs my tonsillectomy is probably till march and wisdom tooth maybe in January.my mouth feels bitter throughout the day but I think my nasal odour is stronger than my mouth odour. I will definitely try irrigation as my bottom front teeth have a dark plaque around them and so did the tooth before my impacted wisdom tooth the dentist removed that though
Oh a while ago I had an appointment with my dentist and after she probed with the molar and wisdom teeth it felt like the reactions got worse like she opened something in that area.

[halitosisux]

sopo I've replied to your PM, please check. Keep trying to get your gums as healthy as possible. I know it's infuriatingly insulting to most people with BB who have excellent dental condition to talk about the subject of teeth and gums, but this is the one area we know for a fact causes bad breath in nearly ALL cases of BB when there are obvious signs of problems in this area. But there is also a lot that remains unknown about the diseases and disease processes in this area - it's a complex subject. So trying this flushing is just an experiment for me, which has had a shockingly good result so far, so I'm sharing what I've done.

Corpsebreath, yes I remember reading recently about someone mentioning chlorhexidine on here, it was probably you. I was going to comment, but decided to wait until I felt more certainty. Nothing compares to the power of chlorhexidine in my opinion. Shame about the staining and the taste alteration, but they are both manageable side effects. Perhaps after a while it would be possible to begin diluting it and still get the same results.

I can say with total certainty that my right side where my wisdom tooth was, was always the smelliest side of my mouth and throat in general. My right tonsil was also always the smelliest (by far) and produced the biggest stones. Was that a coincidence? Maybe. Perhaps I just had bigger tonsil crypts on that side. But my definite impression was that my right side was the smelliest in general. I can't say I've ever had "spots" of my tongue that smelled when other spots didn't, because after a while my whole tongue would stink, but definitely I had zones of my tongue that had more intensity of smell.

Your molars might be scraping the tongue and causing irritation? Don't forget, it's supposedly impossible to smell our own bad breath, so in theory you might not be able to detect an odour you're producing from your gums, but others can smell it strongly. This is one heck of a confusing affliction.

Thinkpositive, good luck with irrigation. Don't rush with any surgery. Do everything you can first to avoid surgery. I had my tonsils removed, but looking back now, I probably didn't need to.

[why me?]

I have recently tried a deep irrigation cleaning in my gums.

I've always had a bad smell between my upper left molar and the tooth next to it when I floss. Sometimes it has a fecal smell. Lately it smells like mothballs/pneumonia. I also have a bad metallic taste in the back of my throat when I drink water. This is how I know I have smelly breath.

All 4 wisdom teeth have been removed.

I have very bad nasal breath and it smells up my cube.

Was diagnosed with perio-gum disease for the past 13 years and have pockets that measure 4mm or more.

Had gums shaved, 3 teeth removed, mercury filling removed, have a really deep geographical tongue and receding gum lines, and have a crown on right side.

Some pockets have improve, but I do have a back lower left molar that has a lot of bones loss, very mobile and has a pocket of 7mm.

The dentist did a bone shaving on one my teeth on the upper left near my molar. She said I needed to use cleaning picks with bristle to avoid irritation to the bone shaving procedure. I noticed blood every time I cleaned it and it smelled horrible. The lose molar would smell the same also.

I use a water pick and air pick and the smell was still there. Like a lot of others on this forum, I've tried most of the mouthwashes, experimental elimination "diets", endo/colonoscopy, have reflux, taken meds for that. Nothing has worked. If I did get positive results, it was shortly lived.

I bought a deep pocket irrigator syringe and I use Therabreath mouthwash and irrigate the bottom left molar and the shaved tooth. I could tell a different the first day...the odor was reduced. I used the irrigator again, once in the a.m. and in the p.m. I would use the bristle pick to detect a smell. The smell was less pungent, but still there. I still have white coating on my tongue and when I drink water, the metallic taste isn't there all the time, only a few times.

I've only been using the deep pocket irrigator for 5 days, but it helps reduce the smell.

I feel the past dental procedures that have taken place have impacted me in a more negative way than positive. The gum and bone shaving have done nothing for my teeth and my deep pockets are still there, even with the perio treatment 4x a year.

I had the fecal/poo smell and remarks about "who farted?", so I feel there has to be a connection to the gum line. I have a dental appt. next Tues. and I'm going to have my perio inject Arestin into my pockets to see if this helps eliminate the bad bacteria in the gums.

After reading Halitosisux's post regarding irrigation, I will try the chlorhexidine in these two areas and see if there are any positive results.

Halitosisux, thanks for the experimental feed back.

[halitosisux]

You are welcome. Thanks for sharing so much information. I hope you can eventually manage to resolve the problems you're having with your teeth and gums. I hate having to say this, but because of your situation, please get the advice of your dentist before you follow any of my advice in this thread. If your dentist agrees though, I really hope it helps.